Establishing Your Personal Brand With Cassidy Williams

Kent C. Dodds: Hello friends, it is your friend Kent C. Dodds and I am joined by my friend Cassidy Williams. Say hi Cassidy.

Cassidy Williams: Hi there.

Kent C. Dodds: Cassidy is just this wonderful person that if you're not following on Twitter already, you ought to otherwise you may never know what Pi time is, but I'm super excited to be joined by Cassidy. She's been a... I've been following you Cassidy on Twitter for a couple of years now I think, and it's just been a joy. I'm excited to talk with you about some of your unique interests as well as your personal career and kind of some of your goals and how that can be applied to our lives as well. Yeah, before we get into that, Cassidy, could you give us a little intro to yourself?

Cassidy Williams: Sure, so hello again. I'm an engineer at CodePen and if you don't know what CodePen is, you should get on CodePen. We are a place where you can kind of just experiment with HTML, CSS and JavaScript as well as other various libraries and things and build a portfolio and play around with web coding. I really like working there. I actually work from home for CodePen, which is very fun and something that I hadn't done at a previous job before. Outside of work I build keyboards. I like to laser cut things and I like to play a lot of music too.

Kent C. Dodds: Music, huh? I've noticed that lots of engineers are pretty into music, which I find kind of interesting. I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago and this guy comes up to me, because I had mentioned in our workshop that I sing choir in college, and he came up to me later, he's like, yeah, I sing opera, and I was like wow, that's super cool.

Cassidy Williams: That's awesome.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. I know a lot of people who play guitar and other instruments and things and I just think that's pretty cool. What aspect of music are you into?

Cassidy Williams: Playing instruments. My husband and I, we both play a few different things and we're in the Seattle Video Game Orchestra, and so in that orchestra we play Zelda, Mario, Skyrim, all kinds of fun nerdy music with them. We also like to play on our own. He actually majored in piano performance before he did computer stuff.

Kent C. Dodds: Wow, that's awesome.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah. I play, my main two are trumpet and guitar, but then I also play euphonium and then he's on piano and violin, and then we've also got a ukulele and a [metalica 00:02:35] and a bass. We have way too many instruments under one roof, but it's also really fun to kind of fiddle around us as we experiment with stuff.

Kent C. Dodds: Wow, that's very cool. That's amazing. Majoring in music is always something like I... since I was in choir in college, I interacted with a lot of music majors [inaudible 00:02:55]. That's incredible that you can even get into programs like that.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah. Oh man. I was in band in college just like the concert bands and stuff for fun, and it got intense for some of the music majors when they started talking about a theory and everything, and I was like, you know, this is... I am very happy that you people have this passion. I really like doing it not as a career, and I'm fine with that.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, and you know, that's the cool thing too is that lots of these things, you don't have to go into them professionally to enjoy them.

Cassidy Williams: Right.

Kent C. Dodds: I would say the same applies to coding, and it's actually interesting that... just makes me think of really quick. I have been doing some book writing as well, some fantasy novel writing-

Cassidy Williams: Cool.

Kent C. Dodds: ...and often when... yeah, it's kind of fun. When you tell people that you're writing a book, their first question is, oh, when are you going to be published? Are you published yet?

Cassidy Williams: Right.

Kent C. Dodds: It's kind of like, we don't ask that of people who are just playing around on the basketball court. Like, when are you going to go to the NBA? You know, like-

Cassidy Williams: Right.

Kent C. Dodds: It's interesting that there are so many wonderful things that we can enjoy in this world, and you don't have to have plans to go be professional to enjoy those things.

Cassidy Williams: Right, yeah.

Kent C. Dodds: So-

Cassidy Williams: I totally agree, and that's one of the things that as we start transitioning into career talk, that's one of the things that I've really been trying to focus on in my career, is how can I kind of do these hobbies and afford to do hobbies and stuff and still have the time to do a full time job and do both and learn a bunch of new things without having to be professional at these new things.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes like the things that you enjoy the most, you hope are the things that you can do most of the time, right, and the thing that you do most of the time is, you know, unless you have just tons of money hanging out like doing nothing, but you're probably going to be working most of the time, and so if you can find something where I enjoy doing this most of the time, but I have to work for money, so why don't I do that and make money at the same time. You're kind of double-dipping there, I guess, and so like finding a way to turn the thing that you enjoy into something that you can make money doing. I guess that's the real trick that we're all trying to figure out.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, and getting that passive income going so you can have that working for you too.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, exactly. Let's hear a little bit about your experience [Cassie 00:05:28]. Where have you come from? How have you been able to accomplish some of this idea in your life?

Cassidy Williams: Oh man. I have had a bunch of different jobs and I've been bouncing around a lot, and that's not because I'm trying to brag about my very long resume. That's just because I can't seem to stay still in one spot. Before CodePen I worked at Amazon for a little bit and Amazon was an interesting experience that taught me that I do not like large companies and that's nothing against Amazon. It's just something that I really realized about myself, and for those who work there, I'm happy for you. My sister works there and plenty of friends who work there, but it wasn't my cup of tea, and so that taught me that, and then before that I worked at a creative agency here in Seattle which was awesome, and then it was bought and unfortunately that creative agency is no more, so-

Kent C. Dodds: Oh no.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah. It was great while it lasted, but that was a really fun place because that kind of exposed me to a lot of different technologies I hadn't experienced before, and then that they also had a laser cutter in the office which totally sparked an interest in me in that because now I have one in my garage, and also just kind of getting to talk with people across the spectrum that I wouldn't have normally gotten to talk to in terms of technical writers for applications for television and things like that, and then seeing how different industries work because it's an agency that work with a bunch of different groups, and so before that, that was all in Seattle. Before that I lived in New York City and in New York City I worked at Clarifai, which is an artificial intelligence startup there, and yeah-

Kent C. Dodds: Interesting. You've worked at some pretty interesting places.

Cassidy Williams: Lots of variety. Clarifai is a cool place. They're still kicking and doing a lot of interesting things with image recognition. What's really cool is they have an API where you can take a picture of something and it'll just return tags for that image, and so if I took a picture of my computer right now, it would say technology, computer, business, keyboard and things like that, and so you can use that to enhance a search engine or something like that. Then before that my first job out of school was at Venmo and Venmo was... it was actually pretty early on at Venmo, PayPal was just buying them when I joined, and so it was exciting because it was right at the beginning of an acquisition and so lots of changes happens, like eBay split from PayPal while I was there and the company was going through all of these just growth things where they started to realize, oh we need to make money now because it's [inaudible 00:08:21], you know, as a lot of startups start to realize. That's kind of where it all started, and at Venmo and Clarifai I did more dev evangelism. I did a combination of dev evangelism and coding which involved speaking at a lot of conferences and events for work, which was a blast. I really liked it, but I was traveling constantly which, you know, there're pros and cons to that. It was great as I got to make friends all over the place and really see a lot of the country on the world even, but the cons of that were, I never wanted to travel for vacation or really just... I just wanted to be home all the time because I was traveling so much and so now I go to conferences and stuff on my own not for work, which is a lot more fun because I can kind of more pick and choose the events that I speak at and speak-

Kent C. Dodds: And the topics and everything too.

Cassidy Williams: Right, exactly. Speak more about what I want rather than doing a sales pitch of sorts.

Kent C. Dodds: Wow. You've had an interesting history. I don't know if you're aware, but I was at PayPal up until a couple months ago-

Cassidy Williams: I was going to say, I wasn't sure if you were still at PayPal or if you had left recently.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. I went full-time educator in February-

Cassidy Williams: Nice.

Kent C. Dodds: ...and yeah, it's been a lot of fun, but PayPal is just an amazing company. I am similar, I worked at a company that was very, very large and I was like, yes, I'm not a large company person and PayPal didn't really feel like a large company for me. Maybe it was because I worked remote, but they was a fantastic company and Venmo, the people that I interacted with from Venmo were always just super cool, so that was-

Cassidy Williams: The [inaudible 00:10:08] was fantastic. I sometimes miss it just because it was such kind of a silly but fun culture because it was a really young company when they were bought, I think the average age was maybe 26 at the company. Like it was a very young company. On one hand it needed PayPal to kind of become mature as an organization literally, but at the same time it was a really fun place to go to right after college.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, sure. You were interacting with people who are in a pretty similar stage of life as you were.

Cassidy Williams: Right, exactly.

Kent C. Dodds: ...and there're pros and cons to that, but you were able to make some cool friends I imagine which is cool.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah. People who I've stayed friends with to this day which is, you know, that's what matters.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. That's cool. Relationships are really where the happiness comes from in life. Cool. Thanks for sharing your career journey with us. It sounds like you mentioned that you did jump around a little bit and when was it that you... so it sounds like the first couple of jobs to you were actually still in school, is that right?

Cassidy Williams: No, they were just right out after school.

Kent C. Dodds: Oh, I see.

Cassidy Williams: I graduated in 2014 and so if you could do the math, I have had five jobs in five years.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. Actually, same story. I graduated in 2014 as well and this is my fifth job. I guess I'm self-employed now, but yeah, it's kind of fun.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, cool.

Kent C. Dodds: It sounds like the... part of the reason that you made these transitions wasn't necessarily that like, you weren't let go from these opportunities. You found other opportunities that interested you. What was kind of the thought process that you were going through over these last few years to kind of identify the places where you would be happier and contribute more in the way that you wanted to contribute?

Cassidy Williams: Right. It was definitely kind of a mindset change over time because at Venmo I was very gung-ho, I was just like I'm going to climb this career ladder to success, and so I took on every single opportunity. I said yes to way to many things honestly because I was determined to just be the boss somewhere and I wanted to be as high up as possible. There are pros and cons to that. I definitely burnt out pretty hard because I was taking on way too much. There was point where I was speaking at events for 14 days straight. I spoke at an event every single day.

Kent C. Dodds: What?

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, and it was-

Kent C. Dodds: Oh, my goodness.

Cassidy Williams: It was a bad choice? I don't recommend that. I was just very determined and then Clarifai kind of came along where the founder was kind of just pinging me a lot saying like, "Hey, we'd really like you on board." And I was happy where I was, and eventually I went and grabbed coffee with him and it kind of just turned into an interview that was unintentional and then it just kind of happened. In talking to him, it made me realize that even though I was taking on a lot of different things, my growth was starting to plateau a little bit, and by joining this very young startup, there were only like 15 or 16 people at the time, I would be able to take on a lot more responsibilities and kind of improve my resume and kind of just get to that next step in my career, and so that kind of led to that switch and it was actually very good timing because unfortunately as with acquisition certain things get cut from small companies. The Venmo API was killed I think two weeks after I left and so it worked out in that sense. At clarify again, I was traveling a ton and with that I was leading a dev role there and it was a blast. I really liked working there. My sister worked there too which is great, and two or three of some of my best friends worked there and are still really good friends with me today. It was a great experience, but there came a point where it was kind of less career, I need to grow and do the best thing that I can and more. I don't really want to live in New York anymore. New York was a great city to live in, but there came a point where I was just like, I knew I wasn't a good fit with the culture there. I kind of wanted to have more time for hobbies and have the space for hobbies. There's not a lot of space in New York and it's a very fast paced city where it felt like a lot of the time it was, you work a lot and then you kind of either go to the bars or you hang out with friends at a certain way and then you sleep, and then it's just kind of that constant loop, and there wasn't a lot of just downtime there. That might've been in the jobs that I specifically had, but that's just what I found while I was there, and so that led to the switch to Seattle and then I kind of found the creative agency. It was called L4 Digital. I kind of found it randomly when I was just looking up best companies to work for in Seattle.

Kent C. Dodds: That's pretty random.

Cassidy Williams: Because I didn't have as much of a network in Seattle and so I was kind of like, I'll just Google, start applying and then I'll reach out to friends I know who might be able to point me in a good direction and when I ended up joining L4 it kind of started out where I was like, yeah, they are on this list so they've got to be good, but then as I worked there, they really were... like they deserved to be on that list of best companies to work for in Seattle. They were really, really cool culture where if you told someone, this is kind of my goal, they would figure out a way for you to do it. Where I was saying I want to get more into management and manage more engineers. Within like three months I was managing six engineers and-

Kent C. Dodds: Wow. That's awesome.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, and when I said I wanted to be a tech lead on a project, within a month I was a tech lead on two different projects. It was great. They really were awesome at just finding opportunities for people to help them grow and listening and that sort of thing which was great for me because it kind of helped me figure out things that I liked and things I didn't like. I started to realize I needed to either pick dev or pick management, doing both is a lot of time. It was still a great experience and then they were bought and unfortunately things started to change rapidly and I left. That led me to start looking up new places to work and so my sister and my husband were both working at Amazon at that point and so I was just like, oh well then I could interview at Amazon and so I started interviewing there and then CodePen had reached out to me at that point too and it was tough because on one hand Amazon had the big salary, the really big title and a lot of big company perks that I hadn't really experienced because most of the companies I've worked for were smaller with the exception of Venmo and some PayPal things. That was appealing but then CodePen, I liked the idea of being able to work from home and have that core work life balance and also the people at CodePen and are just really awesome.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, legit.

Cassidy Williams: It was a tough decision and ultimately I was just like, you know what, I'm going to go for the very, very different experience of Amazon and see how that goes and we'll see what happens. Honestly the whole title and the cash appealed to me and it taught me a very harsh lesson that title and cash does not bring you happiness and I kind of realized within two weeks that it was not a great fit and I still worked hard. I still tried to make it work and honestly it just... it wasn't worth the politics of a large company and realizing that there's a lot of work that you want to get done but you can't get done because this person doesn't like this team so you need to be able to go around them by doing this. It was getting frustrating for me to deal with that and not be able to just get my work done and, yeah, but I guess politics could really summarize the reason why I wasn't a huge fan of working there and so there came a point where I was just like, you know what, I'm done. I've been working till 10:00 PM some nights, this is not a good fit and so I-

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, that wasn't really mesh with your goal that you had when you were in New York of having more personal hobby time.

Cassidy Williams: Exactly. Yeah and so I reached back out to CodePen and I said, "Can we revisit this conversation?" They're just like, yeah, this is great timing for us actually and so I kind of did a mini re-interview with them and then it worked out and that was last August and I've been there ever since and it's been fantastic. The people at CodePen are great and it's the most flexible job I've had. I've been able to work on side projects without having to sign a non-compete agreement because of the [crosstalk 00:19:28]-

Kent C. Dodds: Yes.

Cassidy Williams: ...it's so nice and just being able to work from home. Sometimes I work from a library. I've worked at coworking spaces, I've worked at cafes, having the ability to kind of move around, interact with people if I want to and focus at home if I don't, it's been absolutely great for me to get work done, but also to be able to have the time to do things where if for example, I wanted to go to the gym, I could do it in the middle of the day and not have to do it at the beginning or end of the day when it's crowded just because I work from home, so it has that ability. It's been great so far.

Kent C. Dodds: That's awesome. It sounds like you were... especially earlier on, you're kind of trying to figure out what you really wanted out of your career and out of your job and sounds like the first two jobs were actually pretty, you know, they worked out pretty well for you and then things changed within the environments and you were mindful enough to recognize that this isn't what I signed up for or not what I was hoping out of my job and then you made a change. Amazon didn't quite turn out well for you and not to say that it's a bad company like you said, but it just didn't work for you and then making this change to CodePen has worked out really well and so like, is there anything that you wish that you had done differently in the process of making these transitions throughout these companies and like whether that be in your personal... like with your personal time or with your career time that you feel like could be particularly insightful to our listeners.

Cassidy Williams: With those first two jobs in New York, I should have said no more. That was something that I've learned how to do and I'm still working on learning how to do honestly, but in those times I was so stressed and burnt out so often because that's just like I've figured this is what the job demands, this is what you have to do to get ahead, but it's not worth it to get ahead if you're burning out and not happy with how things are going and I was living in New York City and I was so close to being able to just fly over to Europe because it's cheap to fly from New York to Europe and I never did it because I was working so much and just traveling so much that I never took advantage of being in the location that I was, and granted I did go to Broadway shows and I did eat the good food and stuff. I took advantage of some New York things, but there are things that I wish I would have done and I didn't because I didn't say no to things and I didn't establish a solid work life balance early on because I thought this is what you had to do. To say no, I think is something that I'm still working on but that's something that I definitely wish I did more.

Kent C. Dodds: No, that's super advice it makes me think of this book I listened to recently called Boundaries. I'll add a link to that in the notes for people, but it's fantastic book on basically what you described to being able to know when to say no and how to say no and that kind of thing.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, and then really just letting employers know like what's important to you not just in work but outside of work too. I think that's so important and again, that's kind of what I mentioned where I do all of these hobbies and things outside of work now and I'm so much more active about them that I can talk about them and work and employers know work isn't my life. There're so many things in, and aspects to my life that are important to me and are just as if not more important to me that I bring up intentionally so that way they can see that I won't get rid of these important things for my job.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. I think having that... that's also kind of a boundaries thing having that clear part of you where you say, this is actually a part of me. When I joined PayPal I was doing podcasting, blogging, egghead videos and stuff and it was a very like clear understanding when I started that I'd continue to do those things and I think especially with the way that the developer industry is right now, it's pretty like, you know, high demand for developers and so we can make some of those, I guess demands is not quite the right word I'm looking for but just-

Cassidy Williams: I know what you mean though likely, those caveats.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. Like this is an important part of my life. I want to go rock climbing at two o'clock every day and so like that's understood and so you show up a little bit earlier, you leave a little bit later, whatever it is so that you can have the life that you want to have.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah and we're very lucky to have that. Developers are definitely a privileged group, but we should take advantage of that and if you want to go rock climbing, say that you're going to go rock climbing and as long as the work gets done, that's what matters. It's not an industry that needs to force you to say, no, your hours are nine to five. You need to wear a tie. You need to do this or that.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, exactly and I think maybe that's a good takeaway for people is we're in a pretty great situation where if that is your experience at work, then maybe look outside of that and you'll find that there are lots of companies that are willing to accommodate for your lifestyle and it's not just because they're begging developers to work for them and that it's hard to find people to hire, but it's because lots of these companies are finally recognize that if we allow our employees to do the things that bring them happiness in life and have the kind of life that they want, then they'll be better employees for us.

Cassidy Williams: Right.

Kent C. Dodds: They'll do better work.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, because if you're not stressed and you're happy outside of work then you do better work in the workplace.

Kent C. Dodds: Absolutely.

Cassidy Williams: It's pretty straight forward.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah. It's kind of like, now that it's been said, it's like, why didn't we always know this?

Cassidy Williams: Right.

Kent C. Dodds: But there're still many companies that haven't caught up to that vision and so I'm sure many people listening are like, yeah, if only I could go riding horses in the afternoon or whatever. There are places where you can have that kind of life and so with the last couple of minutes that we have. I want to ask you a little bit about like how do... it sounds like you've kind of figured out what it is that you want to do and some of the things you don't want to do and you've been able to find a job that caters to those things. What advice could you give to people to be able to determine what it is that they want to do in life and then also be able to find the job that will allow them to do that.

Cassidy Williams: I think as clickbaity as it sounds, you really have to establish a personal brand not for other people just to see, but for yourself to see and it's not about where do I want to get in my career? It's about what do I like to do and what don't I like to do? You need to be able to define both and it can be as simple as I don't want to do C programming, sure, but there's also like, I don't want to work after a certain hour or I don't want to have a commute that's this long or I don't want to have to be on call on weekends. Things like that, that really establish things that you want to do and things that you don't want to do and I emphasize the don't here because a lot of people don't think about what they don't want to do. They often think about what they do want to do and they'll do whatever they can to get to that point, but if you establish both, what you do and what you don't want to do, that can help you kind of define where you want to go and how you want to talk to employers about your next role and for myself I kind of established that list. I listen to a really great talk by Rebecca Garcia. I think her handle is if you could grow a web on Twitter and she is an expert at all things personal branding and stuff and she really emphasize this, know what you don't want to do thing, to me and it kind of blew my mind at first and I was just like, no, this makes sense and ever since then I've been trying to post on Twitter about my hobbies because if people know I have hobbies, then they're not going to try and take them away from me if I were to ever work with them. If I talk about these kind of nerdy things, they'll know that I am not really into the type of like brogrammer type culture. They know that I am a grade-A dork and I don't care, and so I really just... that's kind of how I've put my internet presence out there. I try to keep it clean because I want to be able to make things that are accessible for everyone from kids to older folks, and I try to be very intentional with the, I don't want to say the persona because it sounds fake, but who I actually am authentically because I want employers to see that if they're hiring me, they're not hiring just another programmer, they're hiring a person who is known for this and who likes these certain things and who has this certain personality and stuff and they're hiring Cassidy Williams, they're not hiring just another dev. I think that that's important for everyone to... if you don't want to be active on Twitter, that's fine, but it might take the form of blog posts, it might just take the form of your job interviews, but really establishing who you are authentically for yourself and for your future jobs I think is really important for you to find that sweet spot in your career.

Kent C. Dodds: I think that's a great idea and like often when we say personal brand, it's like people get all kind of cringey at that. I totally agree. Like so long as... I think lots of the reason that people feel cringey about it is, that it seems unauthentic, is that the word, disauthentic? I don't know.

Cassidy Williams: Inauthentic.

Kent C. Dodds: It sounds not authentic but you can do it in an authentic way and I feel like Cassidy, anybody who's followed you for any length of time knows that you're a pretty authentic person-

Cassidy Williams: Thank you.

Kent C. Dodds: ...and so I think that building that personal brand is a really great idea and in particular deciding what you do and don't want to do, like for your Amazon job if... maybe if you had, and decided here the things I do and don't want to do and if you'd establish that ahead of time, you may have been able to ask the right questions based off of those things so that you would have known ahead of time that you know what, this place isn't going to be for me. Even though on my list of things is I want to have a nice title and good pay. There's this list of things I don't want to do and Amazon is going to either make me do those things or there are other things on my I want list that I won't be able to have.

Cassidy Williams: Right. Don't sacrifice your don't want list for the do want list. You got to have a good balance of both and Amazon might have had a lot of things on my do want list, but they also had a lot of things on my don't want list. You have to put emphasis on both of those things.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, I think that's great and also maybe making sure that it's practical. Like, I do want to play video games all day and I do want to have a million dollar salary, like you know-

Cassidy Williams: Don't we all.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, exactly, so making sure that's practical. I think just as we ramp up here, here's our call to action for people. Take five minutes to write down your do and don't list. The things that you do want to do and the things you don't want to do and I think that maybe in your mind you're thinking of that list, but actually writing it down will force you to think of things you wouldn't alternatively think about. Write that down and then evaluate whether or not your current place of employment or your current life reflects the things that you do and don't want to do and if it doesn't or if it does that's great, but if it doesn't, then try and see if there's a way that you can make changes in your life, in your workplace or maybe change your workplace so that you can have more of the things that you want and less of the things you don't want.

Cassidy Williams: Yeah, because once you have made these lists and seriously writing them down helps so much, but once you have these lists, you can start to come up with action items for yourself. Like, here are the things that I have to do to make this happen and sometimes it'll mean being more active on Twitter. Sometimes it'll just mean I need to talk to my manager. You never know, but it's the first step to having that career and that work life balance... that whatever that you want.

Kent C. Dodds: Yeah, exactly. Well, Cassidy it's been a pleasure chatting with you. I'm sorry that our time is over so fast. Before we wrap things up, just two things. First, is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you'd like to chat about? And then second, how do people connect with you online?

Cassidy Williams: Let me think. There's nothing that I have to plug right now. I mean, say hi to me on Twitter. If you want to look me up. My username is [cassidoo 00:33:21] on almost everything. There's a teenager that has it on Instagram.

Kent C. Dodds: Curses.

Cassidy Williams: I tried, but anyway, everywhere else it's cassidoo. If you look up Cassidy Williams, there's myself and a Scooby-Doo character and I am not the Scooby-Doo character.

Kent C. Dodds: Great. Hey Cassidy, it was a total pleasure. I hope that people got out of this what I am getting out of this, I'm going to be writing down my list because I don't think I've ever actually written it down. It's a good practice. Good luck everybody and we will chat with you all next time.

Cassidy Williams: Bye.